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PrintHow to Help an Alcoholic Stop Drinking
News Type: Other — Sat Mar 8, 2008 10:42 PM EST
Do you have an alcoholic or someone you think is an alcoholic in your life?
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After several messages of friends online asking "How do I help an alcoholic friend stop drinking?" I knew, then, I needed to do something. Therefore, I am going to offer some suggestions. But before you take off with these suggestions, I am sure to have some Al-Anons or Codependents who've arrived at this page and their mouths may be agape with the thought, "I knew it! I knew it was possible! I knew I could get him to stop drinking!" Or for those of you in Al-Anon or Codependent recovery, "They never told me this in Al-Anon!"
Rest assured. These tips are coming only from me; Being a double winner of Al-Anon recovery [by way of Alateen in High School] and later, when alcohol proved more successful than alateen recovery and then finally to Alcoholics Anonymous and then back to Al-Anon I went. :)
In short order: This is my experience from both sides and if Alcoholics Anonymous and Al-Anon recovery has taught me anything it's that I can only share my experience, strength, and hope. I will not offer advice or any other thing that I did not do or that did not work for me to get sober. Everything I will share played a part in turning this self-loathing helpless and hopeless daily drinking life-fearing suicide-attempting alcoholic into the woman who sits before you now; Happy, whole, serene, sober, non-drinking.
How to Help an Alcoholic Quit Drinking
1. Don't let it remain a secret. Secrets have no light. Under the cloak of darkness and hiding is where dis-ease flourishes and they best flourish as secrets. It encourages shame and as long as shame by way of secrecy is an aspect of any dis-ease, healing cannot begin. Remove the secrecy; remove the shame and stigma. Then we can start.
Examples of not allowing the suspected alcoholism remain a secret: "You're drinking a lot. This worries me." or "Have you ever thought about trying to quit drinking?" or "I don't know but it seems like you're drinking an awful lot these days."
2. Don't judge or label. The trick with not letting the potential victim of alcoholism maintain the secrecy and shame is an attitude of tolerance and non-judgement.
Trust me. Believe me. If you pass judgement on an alcoholic or potential alcoholic, or shame them, this will feed their alcoholism and provide a great excuse to keep going. Alcoholics deal with their emotions by drinking [it is all they know] and if you're trying to help them, this would be counter-productive to the goal. [If you need help with learning how to communicate please read my Words can Harm. Words can Heal series.]
If you have a difficult time believing that alcoholism is more than a matter of sheer willpower and you somehow think that shaming might work, think about this truth. I am a typical alcoholic. I did not have any tools other than alcohol in which to deal with myself. If I had a bad memory, I drank. If I felt sad, I drank. If I felt happy, I drank. If I had something to celebrate, I drank. Something to mourn, I drank. I did not know what else to do in the face of emotions; particularly fear and shame. You shame an alcoholic and what have you just done? You have just shamed an alcoholic. That's it. Just given another excuse to need to drink. It is not about willpower. It is about a real live deficiency in their emotional and mental toolkit. Would you shame a retarded person or a schizophrenic or even a diabetic or cancer victim? The American Medical Association does classify alcoholism as a disease. Therefore, this is not a matter of "just stopping" for the alcoholic by way of shaming or insulting. It is a disease.
3. Don't force but do make the offer to help. Timing, however, is critical. In the life of an alcoholic there are often presented many small to large windows of opportunity in which s/he would be receptive to alcoholism assistance. These windows are usually after some episode in which one could characterize as an unusual experience.
Some times I was receptive to assistance were plenty: When I threw up on myself after passing out on my bed naked. When I'd been arrested for underage drinking. When I was taken to the emergency room for alcohol poisoning and black-out as a teenager. After yet another regrettable night of promiscuous sex in which I'd either been passed out, in a black out or using bad judgement. When I drove drunk to pick up my step-son. When I destroyed my sister's living room furniture in order to kick her boyfriends ass. When the police were called on me because I was having fun with a butcher knife.
The reason for this timing should be clear; Alcoholics are more receptive to assistance when they have just suffered a consequence due to their drinking. It would not be advisable to approach an alcoholic who is drunk, however, if a drunk alcoholic approaches you or begins crying for help while drunk or under the influence - even just buzzed - it may be appropriate to leave the information with her/him.
How to help. Here are some suggestions only:
Call your local Alcoholics Anonymous and get their meeting information to give to your friend or do what I did once and go so far as to email the local meeting schedule to your friend. [Meeting areas can be found at the AA website.]
Or call another alcoholic you may know who has quit drinking.
Or visit your local A.A. and buy a copy of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous to offer your friend or relative as a gift. [Buying it from an A.A. meeting place will be at cost - which is usually $6 to $9 - depending upon where you are in the world; if you buy it elsewhere you may pay a higher price but if you click the above link, there are usually people on Amazon who will sell their *used* book rather cheaply!]
4. Remember that you are just the seed planter. But your role is vital! It is true that you cannot get an alcoholic sober. It is not true that you are powerless. You have many options depending upon your relationship with the one you suspect of alcoholism. Do not feel discouraged if your "help" has not been acted upon or you see nothing "good" coming from it yet. Too often we're eager to see the fruits of our work take hold but when an addiction like alcoholism is involved, the victim of it must seek the actual help herself and must do the work in getting and staying sober I do not care what anyone else tells you. [Please see the end of these suggestions for more general information of the mind of an active alcoholic.]
If we can think of ourselves as doing the good work, for the right reason, then the results are really none of our business is how I look at it. Now, I fully realize that that's a harsh pill to swallow if you're the parent, the child, or the spouse or relative of an alcoholic who is killing herself. I know this. I know how hard it is to accept. So, until they're ready, continue to love them but no need to love or enable their disease. [See #5.]
Seeds that were planted within me that eventually took hold were many! I am very glad that the seeds that were planted -from my teenage years on - eventually did root and grow! I am also glad that the people who took time with me didn't say, "She is not ready yet! We should withhold our efforts for someone who is ready!" Solid A.A.'s remember this when a newcomer comes in.
5. Get help for yourself if necessary. Alcoholism or alcoholic family members or relatives do not live in a vacuum separate from the alcoholic, even though it may feel like you're on different planets! Chances are that if you're currently living with an alcoholic, you are living according to what I call "Alcoholic Rules." These rules are usually generational, meaning that if you never even pick up a drink and your Dad is currently "the alcoholic" in the household, you are going to adopt these rules, function within these rules and then pass these rules to your own children or household:
- Anticipate. Anticipate the alcoholics needs so they need not do anything! After all, if you meet their needs, they may not *want* to drink! Turn into a people-pleaser and a mind-reader!
- Beg. Beg the alcoholic to change! Add some nagging for good measure.
- Control. Make sure to try to control the alcoholic. Manipulating is good too. In fact, why stop there? Make sure to control every situation and even the non-alcoholics in the family! If you can exert more control, surely things will change!
- Deny. Denial is necessary! Don't think about it. Don't talk on it. Don't tell on it. Tell yourself there is no problem.
- Enable. Enable the disease. Don't allow the victim to feel the consequences. Bail out of jail. Give money. Call in sick for the victim. Make plenty of excuses.
- Fret. Walk on eggshells. Feel hopeless and helpless but only when no one is looking.
- Gag Order. Make sure you gag order the family so they cannot get help! See #3 & #4.
- Hero. Be the hero of the family. Everyone loves a martyr!
- Isolate. Make sure to isolate. Alcoholism loves this one and tries to get everyone doing it. Remember that dis-ease loves secrecy! See #7 so everyone does it!
- Justify. Justify why all of the above are necessary and work for your way of living and repeat. These rules will then infiltrate every aspect of your life enabling the progression of your own dis-ease! [Codependency, raging, workaholism, over-eating, pills, and even the beginning of your drinking career!]
The above rules are often seen even in households in which there is no alcoholism due to the nature of how we pass along what we know down generational lines. But if these rules are exhibited in a household with no alcoholic, you may still seek help in order to stop these rules from destroying you. [See here for my Codependent Recovery Articles or see here for suggested and compiled Codependent Books.]
If these rules seem familiar to you and you think you need help, Al-Anon and Alateen are organizations comprised of people who understand. They understand the secrecy, the pain, the powerlessness, the anger... Both helped me to understand the effects of alcoholism and how to choose a different way of living that led to serenity despite and while living in the midst of a person whose solution was to stay lit.
More about Alcoholism for the Non-Alcoholic
The Mind of an Alcoholic - An alcoholics mind can be perfectly well-balanced except as it pertains to alcohol. A normally honest spouse will lie if he has to regarding his alcohol. Normally smart about money-matters, if you have a relative you suspect of drinking [or doing drugs for that matter] and it becomes coupled with not having enough money and the punchline is 'can they borrow some?' it may very well be related to their drinking.
Alcoholics are funny, too, in that - although they may not be completely aware of it [I wasn't] - they think they have a secret. The entire world can witness the barrage of trouble they seem to find themselves in or take note [as was my case] how they would shut the door and unplug the phone and not emerge for weeks, but they really think as if it will go unnoticed. Alcoholism is a very twisted disease.
Drinking is only a Symptom - I know it is strange for non-alcoholic people to even begin to understand this disease called alcoholism, and to tell you the truth, even alcoholics in recovery frequently refer to the disease as it's relayed in the Big Book, "cunning, baffling, powerful!" What we do know is that over-drinking or dependence on drinking or drinking despite negative consequences is only a symptom. Where recovery comes in is equipping the alcoholic with more productive tools than the drinking that has turned damaging.
Alcohol was my Friend until it Wasn't - Alcohol did not judge me. Alcohol gave me confidence for my otherwise introverted nature. Alcohol eased my discomfort at being around other people. Alcohol eased my emotional turbulence. Alcohol was always there for me. This is my truth and this is how it started. But, not even getting started good as a teenager, it began turning on me.
I could never seem to just stick with any limit I would impose upon myself. I remember begging my sister, as a teenager, before I began drinking for the night, to not let me drink more than three. [Three happened to be my magic number when the *feel really good* kicked in.] I remember how she tried, my poor sister. But in the end, my manipulation, my lies of "Oh I didn't mean it" worked. It always worked. But in case I sensed it wouldn't, there was always the threat of physical violence or ruining the good time we were having. Nothing was off limits when it came to feeding my alcoholism.
So what does an alcoholic do when her only solution turns into her biggest problem? She looks for another solution. Some alcoholics choose suicide and still, others choose to continue drinking [sometimes being directly or indirectly responsible for leading them to jails, institutions, and/or an alcohol-related death]. I chose a different route.
My solution was to learn other tools so I would not have to drink for my solution and that is what I did. There are a few ways to get into this solution. Alcoholics Anonymous [I did this one] Rational Recovery [this too!], a spiritual awakening [like I had] ... The point is, there is no monopoly on solutions to stop drinking although some solutions may try to claim as such. Even the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous concedes this point. The main point for you, as the person who wants to help a potential alcoholic, is that for every personality of alcoholic, there is a solution. However, if you start throwing 500 different alternatives to an alcoholic hoping one of them will stick, you may frustrate them so go slow, easy does it, don't force. Simply be available.
Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Cult? Yes, maybe and no, not at all. First of all, if you read the first 164 pages of the Alcoholics Anonymous Book [as well as the Traditions] - and you can read it online here - you will see that A.A. is almost anarchy in it's approach! There are no rules, no mandates, no lectures to be endured... And those are facts. That is Alcoholics Anonymous at the core. But.
Then we have the meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous and meetings are only as good as the Traditions of A.A. they follow. [The Traditions are in the Big Book also, that suggest to A.A. how to "order" itself.] This means that some people have, indeed, suffered some bad A.A. meetings [myself included]. But like any social organization it is prone to the indulgences of ego. The good news is that there are many meetings and some, even online.
So can you be an Al-Anon target as well as an Alcoholic? Absolutely. I was. I am. I was in Alateen while I was using drinking. Eventually I went full fledged over to drinking in order to deal with every problem I had. When I got sober is when I went back to Al-Anon because although I was now sober and developing new tools in which to deal with life in general, I still wasn't at ease with family members and friends who continued drinking or living within alcoholic rules. Going around them or talking to them made me feel scared, angry, and powerless; All the reasons I drank to start with.
Final Word about Alcoholism
Alcoholism is a treatable disease. Although it manifests as a physical affliction, the disease centers around the mind. No one can force an alcoholic to seek treatment or force an alcoholic into sobriety or make an alcoholic quit drinking short of trying to lose your mind in the process. However, as a friend or family member who cares for and loves an alcoholic we can help the alcoholic stop drinking. Our only responsibility is to carry the message that there is hope. If we judge or label the drinker as an alcoholic or try to manipulate situations in which to force outcomes or enable their disease an easy time of continuing to ruin our beloved's life, we can be almost assured that the disease will win every time.
I like to look at it as a battle. The disease of alcoholism will use everything it can to isolate the drinker from help. It will manipulate, lie, ruin relationships, and everything else it can think of in order to win the soul of our beloved. If we do the same thing - given that we are not as powerful as this insidious disease - who does it seem will logically win? Therefore, let's get rid of the fight fire with fire mentality and, instead, engage the mentality of "fighting fire with water."
We continue to love our friends and relatives who are harming themselves. We listen with compassion at their plight when they want to talk. We do not allow, however, the disease to lie to us or to remain activated in secrecy. We are honest with our loved ones and strong in the face of their sickness. We do not enable, make excuses, or agree to the alcoholic rules. And at the same time, we are loving, kind, and patient. But sometimes this means getting well, ourselves, first - before we can help our loved ones who may be under the influence of alcohol.
If you are currently living in hell with an alcoholic I pray and encourage you to seek health and serenity for yourself first. After all, we cannot transmit hope for another until we have realized hope for ourselves.
If I can help in any other way, please leave a comment at the bottom of this article.
Namaste my beautiful friends.
Take care of yourself.
Suggested Links or Links Mentioned in this Article [Will open in this window] :
- Alcoholics Anonymous Website
- Find an A.A. Meeting @ the AA website
- Read the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous Online
- Alcohol Recovery Books from my Bookstore [New and Used]
- Rational Recovery Website
- Rational Recovery Book
- Al-Anon and Alateen Family Services Website
- Al-Anon Recovery Books from my Bookstore [New and Used]
- Codependent Articles at Living within Samsara
- Recovery Articles at Living within Samsara
- Codependent Recovery Books from my Bookstore [New and Used]
- My Autobiography - My Recovery Story
- A Relatives Alcoholic Drinking - A true story of mine regarding a relatives drinking. [Newsvine Article]
Reprinted after originally appearing at my website under the title
Help an Alcoholic Stop Drinking
All Rights Reserved. Copyright 2008.
44 Votes- Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.
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{"commentId":1556976,"authorDomain":"fscott"}
Thank you for this excellent article, Digits. I'm sure it will be very helpful for anyone who has a problem with alcohol, or has a friend or loved one who is suffering from this addiction. The links you provide will serve as a very good resource for anyone who seeks more information about this disease. I'm going to clip this to my column, and save it in my personal clippings for future reference.
{"commentId":1556976,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"fscott"}
- 9 votes
#1 - Sat Mar 8, 2008 11:35 PM EST{"commentId":1557930,"authorDomain":"SVForbes"}
Very comprehensive.
Thanks for a serious, well written article.
{"commentId":1557930,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"SVForbes"}
- 8 votes
{"commentId":1559219,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1557277,"authorDomain":"hamid"}
Bravo Digits,
Well Done! It's obvious from your article that you indeed attended the greatest University in the World, the School of Hard Knocks. I would quote the most important segments of the article but that would merely be a copy of it in it's entirety. The Wisdom you garnered from your experiences is truly inspiring, as we are all at different points in our respective recovery journeys, you have allowed yourself the humility to change from within, in itself a very difficult hurdle.
Thanks for this article, I'm clipping it to my column as well, so that I will have it at the ready as a very concise and comprehensive reference for those I come across who are suffering.
{"commentId":1557277,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hamid"}
- 8 votes
#2 - Sun Mar 9, 2008 3:23 AM EDT{"commentId":1557296,"authorDomain":"silkmesh"}
Alcoholics deal with their emotions by drinking
Actual thats not total true as some Alcoholics stop when they have problem, the clear reality they truthfully like the feeling of being drunk and the taste of the stuff they are drinking. I have noted that people that never been alcoholics tend to pigeon hole the reason for an alcholics drinking. Its that film role, man loses wife his job etc, etc, then he grabs the bottle. Many Alcoholic get hooked because of their solicial life many of there friends are hooked too.
Nobody can really help an alcoholic stop only he or she can do that. I my experience normally an alcoholic resents people try to help and most are aware they have the problem. However for many your ideas could work and I really hope people get benifit out of it.
{"commentId":1557296,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"silkmesh"}
- 6 votes
#3 - Sun Mar 9, 2008 3:44 AM EDT{"commentId":1557355,"authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
Babel, unless you're an Alcoholic you have no authority to speak on their behalf about what may or may not be true about them. [although at a pinch I'll let you off with, "they have a tendency to drink"]
I tell you this as an Alcoholic.
{"commentId":1557355,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
- 6 votes
{"commentId":1558310,"authorDomain":"hamid"}
Babel Brother,
As an alcoholic who's done quite a bit of research on the topic, you know, because an educated sick person has the best chance of recovering. You might want to do some research, many discoveries have been made on this once controversial topic. Specific genes have now been isolated and fMRI and other studies have clearly shown definitive biological, neurological and genetic differences between the addicted (or afflicted) and the non-addicted.
I can tell you that I've never enjoyed the taste of alcoholic drinks or enjoyed the feeling of being drunk, quite the opposite in fact. If you peel back the layers of the onion, you'll find that alcoholics, and drug users for that matter (Remember, alcohol is a drug), drink to feel normal. That will sound very strange indeed to anyone unfamiliar with alcoholism, but as Digits used the very revealing phrase so eloquently in her article, it's the feeling of Dis-Ease that we're so desperately trying to get away from.
In other words, we feel completely at odds with ourselves without drinking, we only feel normal and able to perform the mundane tasks of life and engage in social activities with the alcohol. And I think this is a very important and critical point to aid in the understanding of alcoholism and drug addiction for the non-afflicted, the simplest of tasks that you perform daily and take for granted are absolutely overwhelming for us. A telephone call or just leaving your house or apartment becomes unfathomable. And the alcohol, or drug, works very effectively at first, but, also as Digits pointed out, it turns on you very quickly, but by then, you are caught up in a very paralyzing dependence, physically, chemically and emotionally.
I don't know how many of you have heard this one and I apologize to anyone who has already. I've been told that drinking for an alcoholic is like having sex with a 900 pound Gorilla, it's over when the Gorilla says it's over...
{"commentId":1558310,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hamid"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1559245,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1557377,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
Digits, this is excellent. You and I may have some kind of mind meld thing going on since I've been considering writing a series on alcoholism, treatment, and recovery for over a month now. I'm glad you did it first, though, because it's much better than I could have done. It's quite rare for me to come across an article on alcoholism and agree with everything stated.
Frank, thanks for clueing me in.
{"commentId":1557377,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
- 6 votes
#4 - Sun Mar 9, 2008 5:52 AM EDT{"commentId":1558316,"authorDomain":"hamid"}
Brenda,
Aren't we so very proud of our peer?
{"commentId":1558316,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hamid"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1559215,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1564137,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
hamid,
Yup, and justifiably so!
PS. Write it! :)
How about something along the lines of "How to fix your life in 12 easy steps"? Heh.
{"commentId":1564137,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1565448,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1565614,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
Digits,
Do you, or did you ever, have a "God Can" or is that a Florida regional thing? Down here they are huge in early recovery.
You all have had me thinking about some more AA isms:
"If you hang around a barber shop sooner or later you're going to get a haircut."
{"commentId":1565614,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1565911,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1557662,"authorDomain":"bartning"}
"Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Cult? Yes, maybe and no, not at all..."
I live with a guy who's really into AA, and I think he hasn't drunk in a decade or two. He does talk about how they let you do anything you want, and he smokes a lot. I suppose a Mafia member could belong to AA with no problem the way he talks, but not drinking and major drug use or other crimes are still crimes: belonging to AA and not drinking isn't an excuse for criminal behavior.
{"commentId":1557662,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"bartning"}
- 4 votes
#6 - Sun Mar 9, 2008 10:07 AM EDT{"commentId":1557709,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
As an AA member I'm confused by your post. There is no "let" or "not let" in AA at all. All that's required for membership is saying you're a member. I can go to any meeting in the world as an AA member and be blackout drunk, puke, and pass out there and I'm still a member. Then I can go back the next day and do it all over again.
Whoever said belonging to AA is an excuse for criminal behavior? I'm not sure where you've come across these ideas, but it appears to me you are laboring under some seriously faulty assumptions.
{"commentId":1557709,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
- 6 votes
{"commentId":1557793,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
Digits,
Once again you've stated it better than I.
:0)
{"commentId":1557793,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
- 6 votes
{"commentId":1558349,"authorDomain":"hamid"}
I love that Horse Thief analogy. It's kind of like political parties, notice I said "kind of", I'm sure there are criminals who also happen to be democrats or republicans, although one would be hard pressed to blame the party for anyone's criminal behavior.
I believe what Vincent is referring to is the "Dry Drunk Syndrome", when the only thing someone does is stop the drinking, but, again as Digits pointed out in her article, see what I mean by comprehensive, the drinking is merely a symptom, there is no work in dealing with his/her actual problems from within.
{"commentId":1558349,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hamid"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1559533,"authorDomain":"hamid"}
And there's much said on the topic of "Substitute Addictions", in fact, as you may have noticed, AA itself can become an addiction that replaces the drug.
So, in dropping my "tool" of alcohol, I had to pick up another one; one that would preferably not backlash onto me. I picked up the 12 steps - which enabled me to find a power greater than my own distorted thinking - that could solve my problem. And it has.
Very crucial, to replace the addiction, not to mention all the free time you end up with, with positive coping skills, learning to deal with the "anxieties of living" so to speak. Also critical is re-engagement of goal seeking, something that was completely usurped by the one and only goal of "Feeling Normal" through drinking. I've often used the analogy of the standard Windows Menu Format, where a click of the mouse generates a pull down menu, formally, it gave only one option, drink. Now however, as we recover, we begin to notice more options when we feel anxious, like call a friend perhaps, prayer or meditation, go for a walk, etc. It's great to have options, isn't it?
{"commentId":1559533,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hamid"}
- 7 votes
{"commentId":1559569,"authorDomain":"bartning"}
Brenda: I even thought of writing a piece on it. Moreover, the story's been changed to protect the innocent. I'm kind of combining things, not mentioning names, but just because you belong to AA doesn't mean you have more leeway than someone who drinks to commit crimes. While DUI's illegal, drinking alcohol itself is generally legal, especially not being drunk in public, in moderation, or just a little. On the other hand, illegal drug use, assault, and/or tax evasion are not legal.
{"commentId":1559569,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"bartning"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1559575,"authorDomain":"bartning"}
Digits:
In AA, I suppose you'd still call him an alcoholic horse theif, even though he doesn't drink, LOL!
No, I think the AA idea has a lot of merit. It's just when you use it as an excuse to commit illegal acts it's a problem. Moreover, what about doing things like begging and considering it work? I suppose it's legal except you wouldn't pay taxes on the money you beg from people, but it's misrepresantation or something at least: a civil matter.
{"commentId":1559575,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"bartning"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1559587,"authorDomain":"bartning"}
hamid.nyc:
There's also Newsvine.
Yeah, using good coping strategies to manage stress isn't just an AA thing: they taught it in a stress management class I took where they also said drinking too much provides a poor coping strategy. Time management, exercise, and socialization provide better strategies to manage stress than drinking, cursing, and/or fighting. (Now if I can only use exercise more!) Going for a walk sounds like a good strategy!
{"commentId":1559587,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"bartning"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1559779,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1559831,"authorDomain":"hamid"}
Vincent,
I know, that's why I mentioned coping strategies without connecting it to AA. I don't use AA, I went the way of CBT Therapy which has proven more effective in my case. There is no such thing as a one size fits all solution. Your friend it seems is a criminal if he is performing those acts and I don't see any connection at all to AA. I don't see how he would use AA as an excuse, and I've never been to any AA meeting that condoned such behavior, in fact, they would impugn him for acting out. He wouldn't be seen as in recovery, the 12 steps don't make any allowances for crimes of any sort, and if he were working them in earnest, he wouldn't be committing these acts. I suspect he may be pulling the wool over your eyes...
{"commentId":1559831,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hamid"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1564148,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
I've often used the analogy of the standard Windows Menu Format, where a click of the mouse generates a pull down menu, formally, it gave only one option, drink. Now however, as we recover, we begin to notice more options when we feel anxious, like call a friend perhaps, prayer or meditation, go for a walk, etc. It's great to have options, isn't it?
Oooh, that's good analogy, I'll have to remember that.
{"commentId":1564148,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1567899,"authorDomain":"hamid"}
Thanks Brenda,
It worked for me, now, when I don't feel as great as I'd like, I know I'm just one click from feeling better...
{"commentId":1567899,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hamid"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1593651,"authorDomain":"bartning"}
hamid.nyc:
I don't think it's a matter of "pulling the wool over [my] eyes." On the contrary, I just went out to get the mail and noticed him getting help from an unemployed free loader with a wheelchair to put in his trunk. He's also been growing his beard long lately. The truth's stranger than fiction, and the story's worse than I described it anyway.
{"commentId":1593651,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"bartning"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1557693,"authorDomain":"mrhomer4"}
Digits,As I have come to expect from your column,One more Great Article from a True and Honest Human Being that cares for others and does all she can to be a Positive in a very Negative Environment,Thanks for being #1 Friend.Mark :>)
{"commentId":1557693,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"mrhomer4"}
- 5 votes
#7 - Sun Mar 9, 2008 10:23 AM EDT{"commentId":1558121,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1558100,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
Thanks for this article. As an alcoholic sober now for five months my own epiphany came shortly after my 53rd birthday. I'd been thinking of stopping for some time but not having suffered any major consequences from my drinking the thought was just nascent. Then I noticed several physical changes that quite frankly worried me but not overly, i.e. a few small spider angiomas and a reddening of the palms. To make a long story short, I woke up one night puking blood and ended up in the ICU for two days and was told in no uncertain terms that I either stopped drinking or would die a rather gruesome death. Now the angiomas are beginning to fade, the palms are starting to return to normal and hopefully I stopped in time.
What is odd is that I really don't have any urges to drink again even in social situations with friends where they're drinking and I'm drinking Diet Coke. And man am I saving tons of dough. Since I didn't drink much at home it's astonishing how much one could spend in a high-cost city like DC on bar tabs.
{"commentId":1558100,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
- 4 votes
#8 - Sun Mar 9, 2008 12:48 PM EDT{"commentId":1558153,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1558369,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
Indeed it is. Every alcoholic drinks for his or her own reasons. Some are psychically related others just grow out of habits developed over a lifetime, i.e., the parties of one's college years that grow into the "happy hours" of one's adult life, to the 19th hole on the golf course, etc., etc. One disagreement I have with AA, at least from my perspective, is its tenet that one must completely change one's life in order to stop including not visiting former haunts where one drank or socializing with drinking friends. I tend to think that can lead to isolation which is one of the worst things for a person in recovery and one of the pitfalls to falling off the wagon. At least at this point in my sobriety I find I can still enjoy the same activities and friends and haunts I had before with the only difference being that I don't drink. The weird thing is that I thought I would miss drinking terribly in such situations but so far I haven't in the slightest. But each person is different in their recovery and it's one day at a time.
{"commentId":1558369,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1558380,"authorDomain":"hamid"}
Sorry you had to go through that Bill,
Thanks for your honesty, you will probably look back on that someday as a defining moment in your life. I've actually lost a few close friends to this horrific illness, and it was a gruesome departure, to use your phrase. Not to mention the pain and suffering that their family members and loved ones still remain to endure. Luckily, the Liver is a very forgiving organ, if given enough time...
Congratulations on your 5 months my friend, I am proud of you!!!
{"commentId":1558380,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hamid"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1558387,"authorDomain":"hamid"}
Oh Digits,
I like the word synchronicities also, it's so "Celestine Prophecy."
{"commentId":1558387,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hamid"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1558407,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
Thanks, Hamid. Washington, as you know, is a very hard-drinking town although somewhat less so than in the old days. Although one didn't see it in his obituaries or the stories surrounding his death Pat Moynihan's death was primarily attributable to his lifelong love for John Barleycorn.
{"commentId":1558407,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1559544,"authorDomain":"hamid"}
Ah, Pat Moynihan, one of New York's greatest products. Yeah, Washington is definitely a Pub Culture. It makes you wonder how much legislation was negotiated in the inebriated state...
{"commentId":1559544,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hamid"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1559805,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1559845,"authorDomain":"hamid"}
Another reason I love sobriety! It is SUCH an interesting journey!!! SUCH an interesting journey.
And I really love remembering it the next day!!!
{"commentId":1559845,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hamid"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1560095,"authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
I had a girlfriend that recommended Celestine Prophecy to me, she ODed shortly afterwards, I never got round to reading it. Life is interesting on both sides of the fence.
{"commentId":1560095,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"winsomecowboy"}
- 5 votes
{"commentId":1560318,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1563174,"authorDomain":"hamid"}
winsomecowboy,
I am so sorry for your loss, that is such a tragedy. It would be a lovely tribute to her if you read the book I think. I enjoyed it at a time when I was suffering deeply and found great comfort in it...
{"commentId":1563174,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hamid"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1564174,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
Whoa, I read the Celestine Prophecy and the two or so follow ups to it my first time in recovery. Awesome books. It gave me a brand new way of looking at things. Alas, I'm a retread. I suffered from terminal uniqueness for a long time.
winsome: I highly recommend the book, and I am so sorry for your loss.
Bill: I had no idea! Welcome to reality, my friend. There's a bunch of us here on the vine and we have a private group called Viners in Recovery. It took me a year to be able to be around alcohol again in any setting. Now it's irrelevent to me, however I don't typically keep it in my house, except for when my mother's coming over, then I buy a bottle of wine for her and she takes any left home with her. I had a bar at my wedding available for my guests, but I went against etiquette and made it a cash bar. I figured that my guests would understand why I wasn't willing to pay for it, but I wanted it available to those who wanted to drink.
{"commentId":1564174,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1565461,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1567369,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
Well, everyone's different. I know AA teaches the newly sober to avoid the old haunts where alcohol's served and even to avoid friends who drink. I just don't think that works for some people and I know it wouldn't work for me. But like I said, I was thinking about becoming a teetotaler anyway and the health scare brought the train into the station. Don't miss it a whit.
{"commentId":1567369,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1567909,"authorDomain":"hamid"}
Everyone has their own program, in fact, the most successful people in recovery I've met have their own unique perspective. There are some similarities, but ultimately, nobody knows you like you do. Damn, that sounds like a song, American Idol, here I come...
{"commentId":1567909,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hamid"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1568284,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
Well, everyone's different.
Absolutely. I do a bunch of stuff that would be frowned upon, but it works for me.
{"commentId":1568284,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1558529,"authorDomain":"fscott"}
Brenda, Bill, Hamid, Digits, winsome - thanks so much for having the courage to share your stories about this disease that affects so many of our lives. I've been struggling with alcoholism and depression for most of my life, and I know that this excellent article, and your comments, have the potential to help many others who read this.
{"commentId":1558529,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"fscott"}
- 5 votes
#9 - Sun Mar 9, 2008 3:02 PM EDT{"commentId":1558596,"authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
It's a big club ain't it, Frank?
{"commentId":1558596,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"wharrison55"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1559550,"authorDomain":"hamid"}
A very distinguished club at that. When we consider all the greats of the past who indulged, we have to admit, we're certainly in great company...
{"commentId":1559550,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hamid"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1564180,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
hamid, Bill, Frank, digits, and winsome,
It's truly an amazing club. What many people don't see is the astounding amount of talent, brilliance, and work ethic within our membership. Plus the joy is almost a physical force when we get together--we have incredibly fun parties!
There's so much beauty to be seen. It's hard to express how it feels to see a physical and emotional wreck walk through the doors for the first time and within a relatively short period of time become lively, coherent, and physically better.
{"commentId":1564180,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1560317,"authorDomain":"gmgold"}
I found some videos on fighting alcoholism which might help you and your friend
Best wishes
{"commentId":1560317,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"gmgold"}
- 2 votes
#10 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:52 AM EDT{"commentId":1563286,"authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
I would only add two things.
ACA - Adult Children of Alcoholics is a good place for those that have found the 'disease' passed on to them. It is a 12 step program that helps those that grew up in an 'alcoholic' environment (or similar dysfunction). Some people need both AA (for themselves) and ACA (to overcome their parents influence).
The other thing about planting the seed. You may not be around for the harvest. Just keep planting the seeds!
{"commentId":1563286,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
- 5 votes
#11 - Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:46 PM EDT{"commentId":1567912,"authorDomain":"hamid"}
The other thing about planting the seed. You may not be around for the harvest. Just keep planting the seeds!
That is so true, I've heard so many folks testify about people they came across who planted the seed, yet sadly, they never saw them again to thank them...
{"commentId":1567912,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hamid"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1569129,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1569235,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
"If I'd have had a happier childhood or if they were nicer to me, I wouldn't have needed to drink!"
Hmmm, that sounds oddly familiar...
*chuckle*
{"commentId":1569235,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1569314,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1567958,"authorDomain":"ejronin"}
I used to have a bad drinking problem in the ARMY. What made it doubly bad was I had no 'excuse'. I drank excessively because I could.
The on post drinking age was 18 because the Mexican border was only 45 minutes away and they didn't want us going into Mexico getting into trouble. There were two instances where I had drank more than my usual. I have been told that I had 6 double shots of tequila, 8 beers, and 2 long island iced teas... I was toast. I can vaguely remember walking home (it was all of maybe 1000 feet from the club to the barracks) and then going to check in at CQ. I remember on my way, dropping to my knees and hitting the concrete with my face, bouncing back up and continuing on... then falling UP the stairs... and into my bathtub to sleep...
the other time I got home and passed out. I woke up UNDER my bed in different clothes. Upon leaving my room I was greeted with taunts and no one would tell me what it was they were laughing at - they just pointed and laughed. I didn't think much of it. The next day was Monday and we formed up on the pad for morning formation. The Drill Sergeants called me front and center and asked if I had done anything wrong over the weekend. I told them no and was at this time pretty confused. Apparently I wandered my barracks naked breaking into peoples rooms turning on porn. I'm lucky that I didn't A.) get my ass beat and B.) get a sexual harassment charge. Damn lucky on the latter...they sent me to AA... I stayed for maybe three weeks... group help isn't for me, but I can see where is helps others.
I just stopped drinking by removing myself from tempting situation. I understand its not that easy for most people, but I also understand that I was able to quit 'cold turkey' becuase I didn't tangle with it for an extended period of time like a lot of people do. I consider myself lucky.
My brother also recently tangled with it. He's got 4 DUIs, a breathalizer IN the car and now has his license pulled. He and I had gone around about it many times and I never felt comfortable calling him out on it since I too had sort of had a problem. Then I got to thinking...and I said to him
"If you get in an accident when you're drunk and hit someone, what do you say to the surviving family in court when the judge asks you to say something for yourself?"
He said "Well.. I'd start by saying I'm sorry"
And I said "and you'd get no further... because as a parent, I'd be across the room in the middle of @!$%#ing killing you. You kill someone and all you have to say for yourself is 'sorry'... 'sorry, I was drunk'. Yeah, well they weren't and they're paying the price... $6.99 for a 12 pack isn't cheap all of a sudden is it?"
He drank for a little bit more, and I do think I might have been a little... pious about it, but he stopped and has been sober for about 9 months now. My mom finally gave him back his ID (he's 23) and he says he can sometimes feel it coming back, but he just gives my mom his ID so that even if he breaks down, he cant get to it.
It's good to have an established system in place that can catch you, but its also important to understand that the system is to help you, not do it for you. It's hard and I've seen many lives destroyed by alcohol... buried friends hit by drunk drivers, been to a funeral where a buddy of mine was drunk and killed someone else... husbands beating wives... kids attempting suicide over constantly drunk mothers... it easily blocks out other parts of life... and when its all said and done the problems that people try and escape fester on with or without them, never getting solved.
what you wrote digits is very brave... very brave indeed.
{"commentId":1567958,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"ejronin"}
- 6 votes
#12 - Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:14 AM EDT{"commentId":1568289,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
Apparently I wandered my barracks naked breaking into peoples rooms turning on porn.
Oh my god! I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you.
{"commentId":1568289,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1568740,"authorDomain":"ejronin"}
Oh my god! I don't know whether to laugh or feel sorry for you.
I do both.... its sad that I would do it, especially since I'm pretty a reserved guy in person and more sad if you look at the cause, but funny if you look at the action without the cause.
I laugh about it becuase no one got hurt physically, but I wasn't aware of what I was doing, so I'm sure that some were mentally scarred at seeing me naked (points to my avatar picture....that I'm NOT naked in)
{"commentId":1568740,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"ejronin"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1568874,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
Well, I have one in that category too that I'll share with you so you don't feel all alone.
I was tiny, only about 90lbs or so when I was 26 and in late stage alcoholism. Like you, I didn't find out until the next day that I'd tried to take on two tough biker chicks in a biker bar. Fortunately for me, or so I heard, they recognized my condition and had somebody take me home.
So I know what you mean, funny in isolation, but sad that I would do it.
{"commentId":1568874,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1569082,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1569858,"authorDomain":"ejronin"}
I think, then, I must be grateful that your situations were so over the top and in succession and not in secret that you were able to see yours in the light because from the story you shared...there's not one doubt in my mind that had you got going you'd be a full on knee walking alcoholic. I'm just about convinced of it.
Yeah. I have an addictive personality. I tend to overdo things until I have no more control and think like a kid, sometimes not understanding that... this @!$%# can kill you - I'm invincible
...I'm better about it now (any of it) since I've coped and learned to recognize the onset of such behaviors within myself, but that doesn't make me impervious to them...
{"commentId":1569858,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"ejronin"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1589430,"authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
Thinking of it as a 'disease' makes it easier to think of being 'cured'. I cannot be cured or control any disease if I do not take my medicine. Alcoholism is like diabetes. You cannot completely cure it but it can be controlled. You have to do something about it every day. You are responsible for making the treatment work.
{"commentId":1589430,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1580557,"authorDomain":"ronco104"}
i love you guys!!!! hi everyone...thank you so very much, digits. i loved every word, plus all the comments were incredible as well. i truly do love yall, for what yall have gone through to get here, and to have learned how to stay sober in a world such as ours. this is my second shot (bad pun, bad pun) at sobriety (3+years). the first lastecd 13 years, with a 10 year running hell in between. not long after i joined the vine, i wrote my first article in response to an article posted by some psychologist, or something similar, referring to bush as a dry drunk...this article was not about drinking, however. i have disliked that term, especially coming from recovering alcoholics. my article had to do with terms we are hung with, and the fact that we don't need anymore, especially from within our own ranks. i am proud to be a recovering or non-practicing alcoholic. your article, digits, should be required reading for the newly released, hahah. hey hamid, i have gone way too many rounds with that friggin' gorilla...i still have the psychological scars to prove it...and no doubt someone, somewhere, has pictures, hahahahaha. luv, ron
{"commentId":1580557,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"ronco104"}
- 5 votes
#13 - Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:14 AM EDT{"commentId":1580559,"authorDomain":"tamh"}
I have just read this entire thread in one go and it's so nice to see everyone supporting each other in a heartfelt and genuine way. I admire you all very much and this has obviously been a really significant article. Digits, thank you for writing it.
{"commentId":1580559,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"tamh"}
- 5 votes
#14 - Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:17 AM EDT{"commentId":1583789,"authorDomain":"sunsetVan"}
Digits,
I have just read your article and the comments. I really think that this helps so many people- alcoholics or their friends or families. Your goals were definitely success.
I found this article as I was looking for some information about how to help an alcoholic. I would like to tell you the story but I don't think that this is the place... it seems to be more discussion.. the one I have is more a story with so many questions in my head. I have never dealt or had friend or family member who was an alcoholic..It just happened that I met someone (who I really really like and care about) who told me after a couple of weeks knowing each other that he has a problem..I was so "relieved" because I knew that something was wrong. I just couldn't figure out what it was..I was even buying cider when we were together cause I wasn't aware of his situation..now I know and I want to help him so much...and I am so afraid that I will not be able to....he says he goes to AA meetings and I would like to go with him so I LEARN myself how to help him by understanding better who he really is and into what he can turn to when he drinks..I asked him if I can come but he wasn't clear with his answer so I don't know if I should ask again or he will bring it up if he wants me to come....?
Also we spent today together, he wanted to get drinks, we were in his car by a liquor store (he said he needs "a couple" and that he is getting there but he just needs a couple. but I didn't let him... after about 5 min talking to him, he was fine with it and so we left. without any drinks...this was early afternoon.. he just left a few hours ago..around midnight and he didn't drink all day while we were together.. what does it mean....? Did I do right not to allow him to get the drink? I am scared that I do something what will make him feel that I am not the right person to turn to when he needs someone by his side. I just want to be there for him and love him with hope that one day he will stop harming himself....but I am scared I will say something what pushes him away from me....
well It ended up being a little story.... sorry!! Digits, please let me know if i can get in touch with you other way (email??) so that I can update you time to time how we are doing....maybe you could give me some advises along the way. I believe that he is a great guy and he deserves more than he thinks he does. and I really have hope that I can help him to see it.....
Thank you so much for sharing your life story....
{"commentId":1583789,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"sunsetVan"}
- 3 votes
#15 - Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:32 AM EDT{"commentId":1584380,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
Digits,
Marvelous response.
sunset,
Please take care of yourself.
{"commentId":1584380,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1584429,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1585531,"authorDomain":"sunsetVan"}
Digits,
Thank you for getting back to me. I would like to react on what you said. first of all most of the things said are so true!!!
"You are *not* the right person to turn to, sweetheart. And, I hope that statement did not hurt but I have to say it the way I feel it to be. No one could help me until I was ready to seek help. I even employed a male friend of mine to help me. He was not an alcoholic so he could only help in a limited scope."
it hurts....but I hear you...the thing is he says that he is ready to seek help..he goes to AA meetings. Doesn't mean it that he is ready to seek help? Also, he told me that he wants me to be in his life and thats why he was honest with me.. so where do I stand, why he is telling me all these if he knows I cant help him? does he just want to manipulate me because he knows he can?
coming to Codependency
I read the article and its me... I am codependent...and I have only realized when I read your reply and the article....shocking but I need help myself.
"I went crazy and felt like a failure everytime they drank. I kept thinking what was wrong me that I could not heal them? [Thinking, "They must not love me if they cannot stop for me."]"
spot on except I don't want him to stop for me.. I want him to stop for himself
"You will allow your needs and wants to sit on the sideline while you're busy buzzing around trying to fill *their* bucket that *they* are responsible for. Your joy and happiness will forever be contingent on *when so and so happens.* So then I have to ask... If a sick alcoholic is busy filling [feeling :) ] *his* bucket with his disease and *you* are busy filling his bucket with things you *think* he needs, may I ask who is filling your bucket?"
NO ONE this is the true
"YOU are worth a well and healthy life with wholesome, loving, and healthy relationships. If you hand out at my Living Samsara website, you might also find some things you're looking for because I have an entire section worth of codependency and recovery articles."
thanks for your words... I need to take actions to help MYSELF
Brenda,
Thank you. You too.
sunset
{"commentId":1585531,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"sunsetVan"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1586724,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
Hi all,
My brother, who I rarely speak to because he's a very sick alcoholic, actually called me this afternoon to tell me he's sober today and had his last drink last night. Yay!! I encouraged him to consider a few days in detox and that I'd take him there and take care of his kids while he's there. He said he'll let me know tomorrow.
{"commentId":1586724,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1586807,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1586831,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1586881,"authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
You're right, it is harder to step back with family. I've decided to be ok with whatever he decides. It was a huge step for him to call me, I've got to give him credit for that. I'll let you know how it goes. Not everyone needs everything I needed to get moving in the right direction, and maybe he's one of those. I needed it ALL.
Some are sicker than others. Heh.
{"commentId":1586881,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"brendamayer"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":1589458,"authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
Sunset, do not try to be the one responsible for getting someone else better. Alcoholics are good at making it someone else's fault. Each person has to work the 12 steps themselves. We can be cheerleaders. If they can find a sponsor that person will be like a coach. The person them self is the only player in the game.
{"commentId":1589458,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
- 4 votes
{"commentId":1589723,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1591007,"authorDomain":"digits"}
I wrote this today in response to some comments: A Relative's Alcoholic Drinking - A Memoir
{"commentId":1591007,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"digits"}
- 2 votes
#16 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:50 AM EDT{"commentId":1594424,"authorDomain":"simplesins"}
I have read this thread with great interest. I now find myself in the unenviable position of being in love and living with an alcoholic. My SO is fairly far gone, details of which I have been finding out a little at a time. He has a felony DUI (after 2 previous arrests) and has served both jail and prison time. He is currently on parole and in court-ordered bi-monthly therapy and, at least theoretically, weekly AA meetings- but he only attends every other week and has found a way around. The threat to his freedom, health, children, and other loved ones. I doubt whether the therapy or AA will have any real benefit, because he has admitted that he rarely volunteers information and is not honest within the groups about his current drinking status.
I have considered AlAnon, but living in an extremely small town, I have some confidentiality concerns (when I say small, I mean a population of under 100). While I understand that confidentiality is a hallmark, I do have my own doubts about human nature, and would hate to have anything I said in that type of group be repeated as 'pillow talk' or 'laundry line' gossip and lead to the revocation of parole.
I have some difficulty understanding the detaching with love concept and setting boundaries. For instance, at this exact moment he is out of town, having left to celebrate a grandmother's birthday and then staying in town with other relatives to drink himself into oblivion. I had told him before I left that my preference was that he be home with his children, his parents and myself for his birthday, and that if he chose not to do that, I would be unable to provide him a ride back (he is about 200 miles away). I don't think I was using it as a threat/ultimatum type situation, and did try to explain that with a new job, the price of un-reimbursed $ gas, responsibilities around the house, and the lack of desire to be trapped in a car for three hours with him drunk (as he starts at noon and by the time I could get there well after 6, he would have consumed at least a case of Bud) it would not be possible. I made it clear that if he chose not to ride back with his parents and son after the relative's BD celebration, he would have to make alternative plans to get home. However, now the phone calls have started coming and, not surprisingly, the attempt to lay a guilt trip on my doorstep for 'abandoning him' when he needs me, forcing him to spend money on a hotel, etc. There is a part of me that is responding to this because he is essentially stuck, but on the other hand I am also aware that he needs to understand that when I set a boundary I am sincere and that there are consequences to the choices he makes regarding alcohol.
I guess the essential question to those of you that have recovered is: When is it enabling and when is it loving your alcoholic and remaining supportive?
Thanks for any advice you can give to this fish out of water. This is my first experience with dealing with an alcoholic, and, aside from watching him destroy himself, the hardest part is having to weigh every decision I make regarding its impact on him.
{"commentId":1594424,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"simplesins"}
- 2 votes
#17 - Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:10 PM EDT{"commentId":1595159,"authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
You cannot get the fish out of water. You can only save yourself and your children. He has made it clear that he is only going through the motions. He does not think he has a problem. Everyone else does. He will kill someone with his car one day. Make sure it is not you or one of the children.
You say that you live in a very small town. If that is so, everyone knows about him and they wonder what is wrong with you because they do not see you doing anything about it. Your sense of shame about getting help is misplaced. You should be ashamed that you don't get help for you and the children before a great tragedy strikes. Sorry to be so blunt. You are "keeping the secret" by not talking about the elephant in the room.
{"commentId":1595159,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1595616,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1598872,"authorDomain":"simplesins"}
Dr. Know: Just to clarify, I feel no shame about my SO's alcoholism. He was an alcoholic before I met him and neither the cause nor the cure are in any way directly related to me, and therefore I have no shame about it (some people would say I have no shame about anything, but that's another story!). Before moving to the middle of nowhere, I spent almost 20 years in San Francisco, so the whole idea of therapy and treatment programs, etc. are not at all foreign to me. Rather, my hesitation comes out of a perhaps misguided desire to protect him from legal ramifications because of something I may say in an Al-Anon meeting. While I have actually been introduced or even spoken to very few people in my time living with him, everyone knows I am Joe Blow's live-in, so the idea that nobody would know who I was talking about when discussing a "friend" who drinks despite being on a parole that strictly forbids it is naive.
Digit: Thank you for thoughtful response (and your ability to read my frequently disjointed sentences). For the record, I did sort-of end up picking him up last night, although I refused to drive the 200 miles; instead, he hitched a ride at a truck stop and the semi brought him up within 30 miles of me, at which point I did go get him. To me, he looked like hell (and today feels even worse), but I confess to a certain co-dependent relief that he is back here where I can at least try to steer him away from the insane choices to the merely stupid ones.
I agree with you about having someone to talk to, although that is turning out to be easier said than done. Most of his "friends" are in even worse shape than he is, my SO's drunken behavior having driven away most of the non-alcoholic segment of the population. He has one friend/relative, as a matter of fact his sponsor, that I have talked to occasionally, but there is some sort of undercurrent there that is just a little uncomfortable. I speak occasionally to his parents, and while helpful and sympathetic, I think they are a little tired of discussing my SO with his women, and probably, as they are older (late-60s), more than a bit eager to turn over his care to someone else for a while (as they have been cleaning up after him- yes, enabling- for over 20 years now).
So we got home at 5:00 this morning, and he went to sleep until 2. He got up, had a glass of water, and proceeded to tell me how he knew he had to get himself back on track and find the direction in his life again. At which point he went and got himself a beer out of the fridge (which I had not disposed of in his absence as everything I read said would be a money-burning waste of time). As he drank, he reiterated that he knew he could not drink like "normal" (his word, not mine) people do and would have to be abstinent. At which point he got another beer. Then, after visiting his parents and stopping to get gas, he came out of the mini-mart with a 12-pack. Now, on what was supposed to be a kiss-and-cuddle night because he missed me so during his sojourn with his alcoholic cousins, he is snoring on the couch at 8:30. Whether it's from too little sleep during his vacation or the beer (albeit only 7) or the combination is not clear, but needless to say the only kissin' and cuddlin' going on tonight will be me and the dogs!
But he is safely home and I suppose I should view it as a step in the right direction that he at least acknowledges that he has a problem. While he takes his baby steps to perhaps someday being whole again, I will also take my own to letting him live up to his responsibilities. For the sake of his son (not mine, by the way), I will do what I can to shield him from the kind of stupid 'mistake' that will land his buttocks back in prison, but other than that, I will endeavor to live my sane(ish) life without having his son's and my lives revolve around the alcohol. I still will have to lift a great deal of the responsibility from his shoulders for my own comfort (such as carrying in wood, feeding the wood burner, cooking the meals, etc.), but will do it on my terms, on my schedule, and as I see fit.
Thank you again, Digit, for providing me the opportunity to get some insight. The fact that you were once in his shoes provides a great opportunity for me to gain at least some understanding of how the alcoholic mind often works (while still acknowledging that everyone is different) and I am very appreciative.
{"commentId":1598872,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"simplesins"}
- 2 votes
#18 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:58 PM EDT{"commentId":1603944,"authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
Dani...
You cannot protect him from anything. You can only protect yourself. You can protect the son by telling his real mother what is going on and getting him OUT of that dangerous situation.
GET HELP. For you and for his son.
He is saying the words he thinks you need to hear. He is NOT admitting that he has a problem. Anyone that "says" he needs to stop drinking while drinking over a 6 pack is just manipulating. You are giving him credit for nothing. Words mean nothing when it comes to an alcoholic. The actions do. You want to believe him but deep inside you know he has said all of this before. The time in prison did nothing to really make him away that he had a problem.
I have had a few sponsees in a similar situation. You are not helping him. You are enabling him. He will find a way to make it your fault when the inevitable happens. You will accept the blame as you have been.
Sorry for the harsh talk.
{"commentId":1603944,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":1604073,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":1599080,"authorDomain":"digits"}
I am always here to listen. Even if I cannot wave a magic wand. Oh hey. Want to have another resource? SoberRecovery ... I used to spend as much time in the family/friends section as I did in the A.A. section. :)
This forum proved invaluable to me and then there is the whole anonymity you need not be concerned with. :)
Again, I wish I could wave a wand. I know that pain only too well and I would trade THAT hell for my alcoholic hell any day - which I effectually did now that I think of it. ;) Seemed it was easier for me to put down the sauce than it was to "put down my sick relatives and friends" because even after getting sober I *still* had to contend with them...AND, like I said in the article, I was in recovery [Alateen] long before I started using alcohol as my chosen solution. So...sick relatives and friends have been my mainstay in my life; whereas I drank for only 60% of the time of my life here on earth thus far [thank god].
Please keep in touch. Even if you "Contact the Author" by using the contact link at my column. Or by posting here. [I track it.]
If there is anything I can do, again, let me know. Short of that, I'm a believer in venting and listening. Sometimes it cuts my pain in half just knowing someone is listening' someone has been there and that I am not alone.
On another note. I'll be getting together with a sponsee tomorrow who is called *whore* by her mother because after she got cancer her hair came back in curly and her mother would prefer she spend two hours a day to straighten it. Every day it's something and it's such a common occurrence my friend stays in a situational state of panic, depression, and fear of "what's next?" It's amazing she's stayed sober for 9 months.
But one day at a time and we're working it out. She said that's what guided her to ask me to work with her because she had to go to court to face her past recklessness and I told her I'd cut my vacation short to make sure I could go with her if she was scared and had no one. I guess what amazed her was that I had just met her that day.
That, to me, is what people did for me when I went into the 12 step recovery room[s]. Not only did they not charge me money, but people who did not know me from Eve [or Adam] were automatically there for me; willing to make it a "we" program and not a "me." So yes, we're going to work on a plan of action for her to begin to get out of there. She is finally nearing ready.
I shared this with you to relate that currently there are people tonight in your same situation. I have another friend who will probably be sleeping in her driveway tonight [in her car] because of the cruelty of *her* SO in kicking her out there 5 out of 7 nights. This poor woman is in such a situation that not only can she not work - in order to save money to leave - but her SO has custody of her son and has threatened that if she *did* ever leave he would take her son and she would never see him again.
Not to bring you down. :)
To just share that there are many situations going on tonight that are affected by the isms of alcohol. Some are worse than others. None can be judged. As far as sick situations go, we can only try to heal one day at a time and, if we're lucky, not have to do it alone.
You are not alone.
Love, Digits
{"commentId":1599080,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"digits"}
- 3 votes
#19 - Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:05 PM EDT{"commentId":1863528,"authorDomain":"justtesting757"}
This is a very good article and I am going to try to apply some of these methods to help my friend.
{"commentId":1863528,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"justtesting757"}
#20 - Sat May 31, 2008 1:53 AM EDT{"commentId":2024012,"authorDomain":"lisae1212"}
My fiancee has been an alcoholic for several years. He is currently in a window of opportunity where he is admitting it is getting out of hand and is looking for help. He has tried AA meetings before, however, he is not religious or spiritual and is looking for something that does not focus on God. Do you know of meetings or groups or books that are along these lines? Also, I would like more information on how to be a spouse (with a baby) of an alcoholic. Thank you for your time and information.
{"commentId":2024012,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"lisae1212"}
- 2 votes
#21 - Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:07 PM EDT{"commentId":2347242,"authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
How to be a spouse of an alcoholic? Get a lawyer and stop being one. Find an Al-Anon group for you to attend.
If you really want him to change stop being "understanding". Stop accepting words in place of action.
AA makes no specific mention of God, just a higher power. Go to the AA website, it has all kinds of listings. Contact the facilitator listed. They can tell you what the spiritual orientation is. I wrote a set of things for a Wiccan/Druid AA group.
If he REALLY wants help, he will find a SPONSOR and will accept the God stuff in order to live. He can start by contacting me if he wishes.
{"commentId":2347242,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
- 1 vote
{"commentId":2348523,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":2345904,"authorDomain":"hooklinesink"}
Thank you so much for this article, it opened my eyes to so many ideas and ways to behave (and not behave) in an alcoholic relationship. I lived with an alcoholic for the past 2 1/2 years, but the violence and mayhem and her unwillingness to get help led me to end the relationship (long time coming) earlier this month. But now, watching herself kill herself from afar is just as bad as watching it up close. Thanks again for your excellent advice - I'm going to get the support I need, and maybe it will help me to help her.
{"commentId":2345904,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hooklinesink"}
- 2 votes
#22 - Fri Aug 1, 2008 8:49 PM EDT{"commentId":2347245,"authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
You CANNOT help her. Only SHE can help her. You did NOT make her the alcoholic. You cannot cure it.
You cannot LOVE her enough to save her. You did not cause the problem, you cannot fix it.
{"commentId":2347245,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2348537,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":2348864,"authorDomain":"hooklinesink"}
Thank you so much, Dr Know and Digits! I just got off the phone with her (she's in a middle of binge that's wreaking havoc on her and her family) and she said that at her funeral, her family will blame me. Oh great.
Hearing you both say that it's not my fault is comforting. I've heard over and over about how it is my fault, and I carry a lot of guilt.
Intellectually I realize I'm powerless over her decisions and disease (and unwillingness to get help), but what's going to happen at her funeral? We'll all be standing there dumbfounded, wishing we had done something different.
Thanks again...this page has been one of the most helpful resources I've found.
{"commentId":2348864,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hooklinesink"}
- 2 votes
#23 - Sat Aug 2, 2008 11:37 AM EDT{"commentId":2357036,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":2367612,"authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
I feel the need to expand on something Digits said when she said she might have hit bottom sooner if her ex had not be so 'understanding'.
As long as you are willing to accept the behavior, it will happen. You need to save yourself while you still can.
Cause - not yours
Control - not yours
Cure - not yours
No where are YOU responsible or powerful enough. Save yourself from any more pain and agony. Be your own best friend. No one else is.
{"commentId":2367612,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2367958,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":2364945,"authorDomain":"hooklinesink"}
Digits - You are such as sweetheart for taking the time to write to me, and share your wisdom. I visit this page often because it's the only thing that has helped me so far.
I accept that I've been enabling her behavior, and I'm not going to do it anymore. I took a BIG step this morning by taking her name off of my credit card. I was looking at the statements and there are all these charges that are obviously alcohol. Sorry, I'm not paying anymore. I told her I was canceling the card and not to use it, but I'm not sure if it sunk in as her binge is continuing.
Before this binge, we found a theparist who she was supposed to meet today, but even though she said that she went, I'm sure she was too drunk to go. My heart is breaking/broken, but you're right that I need to start taking care of myself. I've seen her go through so many incidents that seemed to be rockbottom, I just wonder what it's going to take to finally stop. My fear is that it will be death, and that is exactly where she is heading. This is honestly one of the worst diseases I've ever witnessed.
I'm going to somehow try to live my life, although this will be going on for her, I can't participate or enable. I'm not living by the alcoholic rules anymore. Thank you again, for everything.
{"commentId":2364945,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hooklinesink"}
- 2 votes
#24 - Mon Aug 4, 2008 7:32 PM EDT{"commentId":2365311,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":2367616,"authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
Max!!! YOU DA MAN!!!
Welcome to your first day of healthy thinking in a long time.
{"commentId":2367616,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
- 2 votes
{"commentId":2367937,"authorDomain":"digits"}
{"commentId":2369156,"authorDomain":"hooklinesink"}
omg, yes - the crazy thinking! "If you loved me, you wouldn't abandon me..." "This is a disease, and if I had cancer you would stay with me" OH the guilt that is ingrained in my head...it will take a lot of work to turn it off completely. But I'm doing what you recommended and focusing on my well being and health (I developed my own little overeating problem, ughhh.)
Thank you, Digits and Dr. Know for the encouragement...I'm already feeling hopeful. If there is a casualty (and I get it's not my fault), at least I won't be going down as well.
Big hugs...I love you guys!!!
{"commentId":2369156,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"hooklinesink"}
- 2 votes
#25 - Tue Aug 5, 2008 10:24 AM EDT{"commentId":2371001,"authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
One important thing - think of what attracted you to this situation in the first place. Write them all down so you will recognize them in the future and keep your mental "track shoes" on so you can RUN not walk away from the next potential disaster. (We tend to repeat the mistakes!)
My sister turned to me one say after she had yelled at her son. "I promised myself I would not be like Mother yet I find myself doing the same things. How did you manage to change?"
"I made sure I did something different, anything, just not do the same things we did not like."
{"commentId":2371001,"threadId":"231740","contentId":"1352460","authorDomain":"DrKnow"}
- 3 votes
{"commentId":2374914,"authorDomain":"digits"}
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